Peter Frick-Wright: From Exterior Journal, that is The Exterior Podcast.
Paddy O’Connell loves two issues on this world, contemporary pow and his spouse, Carly. Fortunately, Carly loves contemporary powder too. It’s a simple relationship between the three of them, the uncommon love triangle with out a number of jealousy or belief points. Factor is, each summer time, all of the snow melts. They should spend half of yearly with out their shared favourite exercise.
So, when Paddy O acquired the chance final 12 months to go to Chile to ski within the southern hemisphere at Ski Portillo, and so they mentioned he might deliver Carly with him, and the journey lined up with their one 12 months wedding ceremony anniversary, it was all very meant to be. And when Paddy acquired again, he filed this story about the way it looks like the {couples} that ski collectively keep collectively. And why is that? Perhaps love isn’t blind. Perhaps its goggles are simply all fogged up.
Right here’s Paddy O.
Carly: My seat’s like coming off the hinges. Oh my god, do not. That is how you discover the
Paddy: Do not take your seat aside.
Carly: That is how you discover the emergency life vest.
Paddy: That is my very inquisitive spouse Carly inspecting the protection gear on the primary of a handful of flights we took this previous summer time on our strategy to ski in Chile.
Are you excited?
Carly: Yeah.
Paddy: Of all of the issues we do exterior collectively, snowboarding is our favourite. So we figured that one of the simplest ways to rejoice our very first anniversary as a married couple can be to move south for a schooshing journey within the Andes Mountains.
Aircraft arrival announcement. : Bienvenidos a Santiago, la horca ocho, veinte de la mañana. Por favor, permanezcan. It is our pleasure to welcome you to Santiago.
Paddy: After we landed, Carly and I took a shuttle 100 miles northeast of Santiago, gained almost 7500 toes of elevation in three-ish hours…
Okay. We’re right here. Lovely. Good.
and arrived on the resort we would spend 6 superb days exploring, Ski Portillo.
This place is tremendous rad. It is like probably the most picturesque. ski resorts I’ve ever been to in my whole life. I can’t wait to go snowboarding.
Paddy: However first, Carly and I sat down within the Resort Portillo for somewhat chat about our imaginative and prescient for this journey, a behavior we have developed over the course of taking many adventures collectively. As writer Anne Lammott has put it, expectations are simply resentments ready to occur.
Or as I say, “Honey, let’s discuss by our targets as a substitute of simply racing on the market and going for it, m’kay?”
That buzzing within the background is from the snow weapons exterior frosting the slopes, a sound for die exhausting skiers like us that is as romantic a serenade as listening to “Watermark” by Enya.
Carly: My purpose is to ski sufficient. To eat three course meals for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
Paddy: My purpose is to ski sufficient to really feel guilt free about having dessert at breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And, I wanna, get into these mountains, , really feel like I am on prime of one thing and looking out far into an enormous vary.
Carly: Yeah.
Paddy: After which the third factor that I am actually targeted on doing is, making out with you while sporting ski boots.
Carly: These are three good aims for an anniversary journey.
Paddy: Do you need to make out with me in ski boots?
Carly: Yeah, let’s make out in ski boots.
Paddy: Yeah, canine!
Paddy: Properly that was simple! At this level, I used to be certain the journey was going to be superb. I imply, snowboarding together with your associate in Portillo, it needed to be, proper?
And since Carly is upsettingly proficient at each sport she does, together with being a stupidly great and delightful skier, I knew there would even be a number of this…
Paddy: Oh, it is so good. Carly’s destroying it. Not not shocking. In all probability the most effective athlete right here.
Carly: That is not true.
Paddy: That’s one hundred pc true.
One other skier: Carly makes it look enjoyable, and we go hack it up.
Paddy: She’s like, hey, in the event you guys would simply please depart that for me. Have you ever tried to simply be higher or extra athletic?
What I wasn’t ready for, however positively ought to have been, is what would occur once I shoved a microphone within the face of my introverted spouse one too many occasions through the first few days of the journey.
Paddy: Are you okay?
Carly: Yeah, you’re simply asking me questions and it is like I did not have the reply and I really feel dumb as a result of I do not.
Paddy: You are not doing it improper child, that is the purpose that oh my god, these are irritating for me we’re simply having a dialog and I do not need this to be I do not need this to be irritating for you. I need this to be enjoyable.
Carly: However you requested me the identical query like 4 occasions and I used to be like, I gave you the reply.
Paddy: Okay, effectively, that is my job. That is what I am presupposed to do is ask the identical query loads. Why do you get so nervous? It is simply you and I.
Carly: I am nervous.
Paddy: As a result of do you, do you assume that the microphone is plugged straight into the web?
Carly: Sure, it is into the world.
Paddy: Okay. Thanks for giving me an interview, ma’am.
Carly: What? I have to go chill out.
Paddy: So uh, yeah… making a podcast together with your typically shy spouse is, um, troublesome. And, effectively, ya know…marriage can be troublesome. Particularly the entire communication half. For this reason Carly and I do one thing as decidedly unromantic as discussing our targets for an journey once we may very well be out enjoying within the mountains.
That behavior, like a lot of our different relationship navigation ways, is derived straight from our shared outside experiences. We started relationship through the early days of the pandemic, and since then we have now finished all types of loopy and enjoyable shit collectively. Tenting journeys. Backcountry snowboarding. I took up endurance working simply so I might be a part of her in taking over an insanely troublesome path working race.
Every endeavor has strengthened our connection, or, effectively, at the least it feels that method. I do not actually know. In order we skied our asses off in Portillo, that turned the factor I wished to know: What precisely occurs to {couples} who journey collectively? Do superior and typically extraordinarily troublesome journeys have a particular energy to deliver us nearer?
Paddy: Maybe not shockingly, Carly and I usually are not the primary couple to look to Portillo because the place to rejoice love whereas shredding the gnar.
Ellen Guderra: Features of romance in Portillo we get a number of that like folks celebrating anniversaries, but in addition like engagements. We have married folks at Tia Bob’s. Now we have somewhat place that we name the chapel over right here. It is a hill that it’s important to form of hike to somewhat bit.
Paddy: That is Ellen Guderra, who runs Portillo along with her husband Henry Purcell and his son Miguel. The Purcell household has owned and operated Portillo for the reason that Nineteen Sixties. Ellen first got here to Portillo in 1980, contemporary outta faculty and in search of a job.
Ellen: I got here as a 22 12 months outdated low stage ski teacher for one season solely, however I used to be so impressionable and this place is so, so lovely that I actually by no means forgot it.
Paddy: Flash ahead to the early Nineties and work journey introduced Ellen again to Chile for the primary time since her fateful ski season at Portillo. On a whim, she known as up Henry.
Ellen: I mentioned, Hey, keep in mind me? I taught. For you again in 1980, and he is like, Oh, yeah. And so we, so we acquired collectively for lunch. And, that lunch that very same day become a dinner as a result of we simply saved speaking. And as he says, we have simply by no means stopped speaking. And now it is, 30 years that we have been collectively.
I believe Henry and I are soulmates.
What simply attracted me a lot to him is that he had this sense of journey and, and I, I simply discovered him to be very genuine and really cool, and I like a very good journey too. And so, I believe we each are individuals who have been prepared to take a threat and alter our lives.
Paddy: In Ellen’s view, embarking on an journey together with your romantic associate gives much more than simply enjoyable and thrills. It may be transformative.
Ellen: I’ve a favourite stanza of a Tennyson poem, Ulysses, the place it goes one thing like, “All life is an arch whose margin fades perpetually and ever as I transfer.”
And I really feel like whenever you undergo this tunnel into the unknown, like once I moved to Chile, or when anyone even comes on a trip to Chile for every week in Portillo, you are going by this tunnel and also you’re gonna come out and also you’re gonna see this new world. And truly, like whenever you confirmed up and we walked out on that deck, you probably did that. You got here out of that tunnel and also you checked out these Tres Hermanos and that lake and also you went, wow, that is it. That is the second. And I really like that. and all people who involves Portillo, they’ll have that.
You realize, all life is. It is an arch whose margin fades perpetually and ever as I transfer. And I believe it is actually cool.
Paddy: The notion that journey generally is a doorway to a special and extra significant and maybe extra romantic world definitely resonates with me.
There she goes.
You are listening to Carly and I make the primary joyous turns of our anniversary journey.
Yee hoo hoo hoo hoo! It’s summer time, and I am having a lot enjoyable!
Portillo is a straightforward place to have enjoyable. The all inclusive resort sits subsequent to the kick-you-in-the-mouth lovely aqua blue Laguna Del Inca lake and is surrounded by dramatic and precipitous 15,000-foot peaks.
That final, like, lake run we took, like, fall line in direction of the lake, that is likely to be on the all time listing proper there.
Carly: Yeah, I really feel like we ought to be doing that extra every day.
Paddy: Carly and I bounced throughout the resort’s 1200-plus acres of skiable terrain. We had hotter temps throughout our keep and creamy spring-like snow circumstances, good for engaged on our goggle tans whereas wiggling down jaw-dropping runs.
I believe the snow and that little couloir, little shot. That is tremendous good. That snow was nice.
Among the greatest snowboarding required boot packing.
Just a bit hike to earn 28 additional empanadas. Yeah.
At all times well worth the effort
Oh. My. God. snowboarding a thousand miles an hour. In Chile. For our first wedding ceremony anniversary. Yeah. That is fairly frickin badass, dude!
However snowboarding increible runs right here is only one strategy to have the form of transformative experiences that Ellen was speaking about. There are additionally, the tremendous simple, all-joy, all-pleasure choices.
For instance, you possibly can ski in a torch mild parade at night time.
Alright, the torches are being lit, and my palms are coated in kerosene. Carls, you go in entrance? Alright.
Carly: Yeah simply don’t mild my…
Paddy: Yeah, I am not lighting you on fireplace. I will not mild your butt cheeks. I am good.
There’s the scrumptious meals…
It is a good empanada.
And do not forget the spa…
I used to be like coated in a lot like therapeutic massage oil. I used to be like a slippery little salamander.
Carly: Yeah.
Paddy: And there is additionally dancing, there’s a number of dancing…
I suppose it is time to dance.
I do not assume Tennyson had discotheques in thoughts when he penned Ellen’s favourite line from Ulysses, however he ought to have. In Ellen’s view, all of the experiences Carly and I had at Portillo could make all of the distinction in a relationship. I imply, they positively labored for her and Henry.
Ellen: You realize, it is difficult, marriage is difficult, and particularly when you could have children and careers and whatnot. However we saved speaking and we saved taking journeys collectively and touring collectively and discovering these occasions when you possibly can reconnect
Paddy: She has one easy suggestion for Carly and me.
Ellen: My recommendation can be simply to maintain speaking.
Paddy: Ellen will not be the primary individual to inform us this. In actual fact, we have heard it loads in our first 12 months of marriage.
Carly: The factor that we have been informed by so many individuals is to simply be certain that we’re speaking. And that takes effort. Lots of effort, And I suppose the shock there may be like, How a lot speaking is required to maintain every part going. Just like the wheels on the bus.
Paddy: Here is the factor, although: Carly and I already do a nice job of speaking, once we’re exterior. Typically although, once we’re again at house, my feelings and my sensitivity can get the higher of me. Which, as one skilled defined to me, is a typical difficulty.
Hannah Eaton: I believe {couples} who’re actually passionate concerning the open air positively face some totally different or distinctive challenges than {couples} who’re extra of these metropolis mice. However I believe what is absolutely necessary is figuring out what your values are as a pair after which ensuring that you just’re dwelling out these values each day.
Paddy: Oh, boy. That certain seems like some hefty work. Cannot we simply go snowboarding and discuss within the sizzling tub?
Carly: Come on in. The water’s actual good.
Paddy:Okay, I am coming in.
Extra on that, after the break.
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Paddy: Carly and my journey to Ski Portillo in Chile to rejoice our first anniversary was every part we would hoped for: outrageously enjoyable but in addition stress-free, a smooth journey that set the stage for love. Over our 6 days there, it actually did really feel like we grew nearer and have been speaking increasingly brazenly.
Oh. God, I really like snowboarding. Hey, I really like you.
Carly: Love you.
Paddy: So, what was occurring? I imply, after all a deluxe journey to a spectacular mountain vacation spot goes to make it simple to like the one you are with, however is one thing occurring at a deeper stage, or is that this simply what the great life does for us? To reply that query, I turned to a relationships skilled who had already confirmed to me that she is aware of her stuff.
Hannah: My identify is Hannah Eaton. I am a wedding and household therapist. I largely focus on preventative relational well being and {couples} remedy.
Paddy: 4 years in the past, I spoke to Hannah for a narrative about my bumbling makes an attempt at web relationship and the distinctive challenges that outdoorsy of us like me face in {our relationships}. Her concepts about being the individual you really are slightly than the one you consider your associate desires you to be, and that love is a spot to offer slightly than take have been life altering for me.
Paddy: I took your recommendation to coronary heart. I actually did. After which in March of 2020, I met my spouse. So thanks very a lot on your recommendation.
Hannah: You might be so welcome.
Paddy: Hannah studied below after which labored with Dr. Julie and John Gottman, who’s revolutionary work in {couples} remedy made them two of essentially the most influential therapists of the previous quarter century.
Hannah: I train a number of their expertise associated to communication, battle administration, friendship, romance, intimacy, and so forth.
Paddy: In 2017, Hannah based Sequoia Immersions, a mix of typical remedy blended with wilderness retreats. She believes that sharing outside adventures together with your associate has a deep and highly effective impression in your intimate connection.
Hannah: These lovely, profound, deep, playful, adventurous, significant experiences that change into actually optimistic reminiscences and part of our id. And, I believe they change into a number of the cornerstones of our relationship. I believe they really function a way of glue and simply creating much more bonding and intimacy together with your associate.
Watching your spouse ski down the slopes and seeing her in her joyful factor and also you experiencing pleasure. There’s that sense of cheering on your associate.
Paddy: Yeah, have enjoyable. Oh yeah, babe. Yeah, Carls. Yeah, babe.
Hannah: That may contribute to your continued attraction and sense of romance together with your associate.
Paddy: Oh my god. My spouse is a really lovely skier.
Hannah: Seeing your associate of their factor, of their pleasure, doing one thing that they are proficient at that they are sleek and powerful at is, it is engaging
Paddy: I am gonna go snowboarding all around the world with my spouse. My coronary heart feels heat like contemporary baked apple pie.
Hannah: And You deliver that again house and it is necessary for long run relationships too, simply in holding that sense of romance alive. It’s totally profound. After which to use that to different elements of your life as effectively, to proceed cheering for them in all totally different avenues.
Paddy: When she leads wilderness retreats, Hannah has just a few go-to conditions she likes to put {couples} into. In her view, these excursions bolster foundational relationship expertise. Take for example, kayaking.
Hannah: They’re in a tandem kayak. Inevitably, sooner or later, most {couples} begin to bicker, like, you are, you are paddling the improper method. We’re turning too far left. Let me paddle. Let me take over.
And I see it each time. After which we have now to handle it and reel it again in. However there are these in-built moments to apply what we’re studying. So the battle administration piece. The way to, deliver up frustrations together with your associate in a delicate, form, loving, respectful method.
Paddy: Can we study one thing throughout these adventures that we in any other case wouldn’t study?
Hannah: Completely. When {couples} are out in intense circumstances, whether or not it is snowing or raining, or it is actually sizzling and also you’re within the desert, there generally is a tendency for some {couples} to possibly bicker or get stressed. However these are literally actually lovely alternatives to come back collectively and to work as a crew, to be resilient, to be good about the way you’re navigating probably harmful or excessive circumstances.
And I believe, , getting back from say like a weekend journey the place you’ve got been winter backpacking, and it was sub-zero temperatures. And also you managed it efficiently. I believe you come again feeling much more resilient and succesful and assured as a pair.
Paddy: In dialog whenever you’re at house. I do know that I can let my emotion take over in a short time. I can go from, uh, zero to 60.
Hannah: Mm hmm.
Paddy: In a second. If I really feel like, proper, my model of security is being threatened or if I am similar to tremendous fearful about one thing.
Nonetheless, whenever you’re on a backcountry ski journey, you possibly can’t be an asshole on the market. I imply, you nevertheless it’s not going to be nice for the group dynamic. You must hearken to all people, categorical issues like in a calmly assertive method, and permit different folks to do the very same factor.
And it is like, man, what would occur if I used to be doing that? When like, we have been like, on the sofa. Why do not I do this?
Hannah: That is an ideal query. Why do not you, Paddy?
Paddy: Oh, Jesus, sounds nice.
Hannah: Placing you on the spot.
While you’re in these extra excessive circumstances within the wilderness, it does drive you to form of calm your self, be grounded, and be assured in your threat administration and selections. When you begin to discover like, ooh, the storm of our relationship is beginning to transfer in right here out of your sofa, as a substitute of simply diving proper into the storm, how can we pause for a second? How can we take a breath? How can we floor ourselves after which strive our greatest to calmly or lovingly or respectfully, talk about what’s coming as much as apply a few of these comparable ideas of threat administration to our conversations, say, hey, can we, can we strive that once more in a extra loving, respectful method? It may be big. And so making an attempt to use a few of these comparable ideas again on the sofa, again at house, I believe are a wonderful concept.
Paddy: “Attempting” is the important thing phrase there. For me, and plenty of others I assume, deploying the communication expertise we develop with our companions within the wilderness to our day-to-day lives is a steep hill in addition pack. However I do know one couple that appears to have figured it out.
Chris Davenport: I am a skier and that is like who I’m and my spouse too. It is what we do. It is what our household does.
Paddy: That is skilled huge mountain skier, information, writer, and throughout good dude, Chris Davenport, aka Dav. He and his household stay simply up valley from Carly and I, close to somewhat place known as Assssspen, the place he and his spouse, Jesse, ski… all of the rattling time.
Dav: Once I see the smile on her face, snowboarding powder on Aspen Mountain and, or we’re all going up Highland Bowl and the children are ripping and that is like, that is what life’s all about. We have finished it. Like pat ourselves on the again somewhat bit. What makes me joyful is seeing her joyful.
Paddy: Since their first date within the winter of 1995, Dav and Jesse have saved their ardour for the outside, most notably snowboarding, on the very heart of their relationship. He says that their alternative to put their shared love of the mountains above every part else has diminished battle of their relationship.
Dav: By prioritizing this factor that we each love a lot, it is made our relationship work actually, rather well.
Paddy: How so?
Dav:We simply get alongside nice and are stoked on a regular basis. And infrequently are we in battle over a lot. So we share that mutual ardour for this factor, this sport, this way of life.
And I believe that is just like the glue actually that retains us collectively. After all we love one another and we love spending time collectively and doing all this stuff. However we love snowboarding.
I do consider deeply that if there is a shared ardour between two folks that in a method it does not, it form of sounds bizarre, however in a method that comes first, then the connection half behind it’s much more strong and it may be even stronger.
And once we each come again into the home at, , 5 PM after a day within the mountains we’re psyched. We’re like, that is superior. We’re, we’re dwelling our, our greatest life.
Paddy: Their greatest life can be a busy life. Dav’s ski profession has had him spending many, many days away from the household. Once I chatted with him, he’d been house for simply six days after a guiding a visit in Antarctica, and in lower than 24 hours he was heading to Norway. That is what each winter is like for him. However even whereas snowboarding pulls him away from Jesse and their children, he insists it’s nonetheless the factor that holds all of them collectively.
Dav: These early years once we have been first married and had children , and I used to be leaving these little infants and she or he was holding down the fort at house, but in addition ski patrolling, but in addition getting these little children to daycare or to college. It is unimaginable how a lot work she put in, and the way a lot sacrifice she made for me to have this profession that I’ve had.
Paddy: Properly, so like, how did she not get resentful particularly when the children have been younger, like a few occasions simply be like, “Hey, like Chris, like. Pay attention, I really like you a lot, however like in the event you go on another journey I am gonna hit you within the ear with a wiffle bat.”
Dav: There have been positively some journeys the place she was like, actually? Like our, our center son. When he was born in February, I left 10 days later to go to the Himalaya.
Paddy: Oh my god.
Dav: He was 10 days outdated. So I can not stay that one down. That was a mistake. I most likely should not have gone on that journey. No, she, effectively, most likely, however she did not, she did not say you out of your thoughts. You’ll be able to’t go on this journey. She did not say that. She was like, okay, that is what you are doing. However we, , we kind of snigger about it now, nevertheless it was, it was, that was irresponsible of me. And I, I used to be most likely blinded by my ambition and profession
Dav: However I’ll say, I, I do really feel like I used to be very current once I was house. I used to be an excellent dad. And once I was house, I attempted to offer her all the freedom that I might in order that she, , she, and I might do no matter I wanted to do to be there as a dad for the children, decide them up, take them locations, take it, no matter it was. And it simply, it simply labored out.
And I actually assume it labored out due to her dedication to me and my snowboarding and my profession and, and her love of the game as effectively. You realize, it wasn’t like I used to be taking off to go do one thing that she did not consider in. She believed in it. And, and we acquired to do a number of nice touring collectively.
Paddy: He is not exaggerating. Over the course of their relationship, the Davenports have adventured all around the world collectively. And because it occurs, they each fell in love with one very particular spot that they’ve been returning to many times for almost 20 years: Ski Portillo.
For Jesse particularly, Portillo is her true joyful place… and Dav enjoys nothing greater than seeing her and their children take pleasure in it.
Dav: I’ve by no means seen my spouse so joyful and my children so joyful is once we’re down at that place all collectively as a household it is necessary for us as, husbands and, companions to, , hunt down these alternatives for our spouses to excel and to be actually joyful and simply be like, “that was superb.”
After all, , I like it and I really like once I really feel good. However I like it much more once I see the look on her face and I am like, wow I am so joyful that she’s like in in heaven proper now.
Paddy: For the Davenports, Portillo gives the form of experiences that Hannah mentioned result in a excessive functioning marriage and household. Observing your associate of their factor, being in conditions the place clear communication is vital, and, , simply having enjoyable.
Dav: There is not any query that, that these adventures, and particularly when issues get somewhat spicy. You realize, snowboarding, uh, form of a gnarly line. That is like, that brings the household collectively. And I really like watching my boys look out for his or her mother, like, mother, you completely acquired this line. It is solely like a two foot entrance after which a left left hand flip after which dump your pace. And she or he’s like, what, what are you guys speaking about? Do not get your mother into bother.
There’s the outdated saying, one thing just like the household that performs collectively stays collectively. I completely consider in it. You realize when you find yourself so psyched to go do that one factor together with your spouse and together with your children and do it as a lot as attainable, that there is a number of worth in that.
Paddy: That concept, do the factor that you just love with the individual you like as a lot as attainable, brings us again to Carly and my anniversary journey to Portillo.
I believe that this journey has like set the bar for romantic time and journey time, . And like how they are often one in the identical. And I do not imply it is on the bar as in like,
Carly: We’ll by no means match it once more.
Paddy: Yeah, like I do not assume it is like an unachievable factor. I believe it is like oh my god, like it may be like this. I need to do extra of this.
Carly: Perhaps not set the bar, nevertheless it’s outlined the factors, helped to outline the factors.
Paddy: Oh that’s actually good.
Carly: Like we’re not like setting a bar and having to boost it. Now we have on this journey helped to arrange like what are the factors for a very good journey, for us? Time to chill out.
Paddy: Yeah.
Carly: Time exterior. Time spent collectively. Time to take a look at of that routine and into journey.
Paddy: And like, a number of good meals on a regular basis. And dessert with each meal.
Carly: I might have gone with out the dessert with each meal.
What I do assume, like, we have finished with this journey is put aside time for like self fullness.
Paddy:Yeah.
Carly: Like put aside time for us to be collectively, which, , after this primary 12 months there’s been a lot of a deal with spending time with others, whether or not it is with your loved ones or with my household or internet hosting so many various associates in our new house, it has all been so great, and, fulfilling to have that greater neighborhood or greater household round us. This feels totally different although as a result of it has been such a deal with you and I and our time collectively.
Paddy: The way in which I give it some thought now, the time Carly and I spend collectively within the open air serves as coaching for our lives collectively. She is my greatest pal and favourite individual. She’s my most trusted and cherished journey associate. And touring collectively into the unknown is what is going on to maintain it that method.
Carly: I believe that, the every day outside time, , working or snowboarding, I believe that is simply on the basis.
However these moments the place it is like, , we throw the stuff within the automobile, go to a trailhead or, depart the home with what we expect we want for just a few hours, after which every part that we thought we have been doing kind of turns the wrong way up or it goes in a special route. You have got a tough concept of what is forward, however you actually don’t have any management. I believe that that is the a part of the journey that I really like.
Paddy: I really feel like we’re going again house with like a rom-com-y journey, fireplace within the coronary heart.
Comfortable anniversary, babe.
Carly: Comfortable one 12 months.
Peter: Paddy O’Connell is a daily contributor to the podcast. For extra on him and Carly, try the episode “The way to Date an Athlete” from August 2021, one among my private favorites.
This episode was written and produced by Paddy O, with modifying by Mike Roberts. Music and sound design by Robbie Carver.
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